Exploiting Modular Bases

[ToejaM]

Problem 1)

 

Getting in a vehicle, driving up to the side of a wall and hopping out puts you inside the base. Very common old Arma/DayZ issue - BB1.2 mod has an anti wall system.

 

Problem 2)

 

Running or driving at a wall and disconnecting can see you relog inside a base. BB1.2 mod has an anti disconnect system.

 

Problem 3)

 

People are able to upgrade walls/structures that they do not own. As this is instant, it means for example the wood wall that you can upgrade with glass and easily see into a base without confirmation needed. I'm sure there will be other ways to exploit it, like upgrading half cinder walls to change the dynamic of a base, some people might use them as firing points but others will just upgrade them mid combat. You might think this is rare but if this is an option and has no downsides to it, people will abuse it.

 

Problem 4)

 

From what I can see, many walls don't have a deconstruct option. Meaning people can place walls infront of bases and without admin intervention, the owner cannot remove this wall without force.

 

For problem 1 and 2 I only mention BB1.2 as they have preventions in place that Epoch could easily adapt and use.

[Tactical Ex]

Problem 1) In a situation where you CANT destroy a wall this would be an exploit, but in that situation, building a "Double-wall" or basically a barrier that pushes the player in-between 2 walls from which they cant escape has worked for me in the past.  In a single wall scenario, you have glitched inside the wall but what then, how do you get out? ... Destroy the wall of course, but why do that if you have a perfectly good car you could have rammed into the wall to GET IN in the first place?

 

Problem 2) This is an obvious issue that will need to be addressed.

 

Problem 3) Was this tested with a plot-pole? It's possible that the upgrade option just needs to pass through the ownership validation, plot-pole validation system and tag-as-friendly system.

 

Problem 4) Plot pole?

[ToejaM]

Why should you have to build double walls to prevent people getting through when an anti wall script would work fine? Doubling the work to create the base to stop griefers/exploiters and general cheating. Its an obvious issue that shouldnt require double the effort from players on what is already a long enough process.

 

With the plot poles, I did all my testing on a completely vanilla test server, not even side channel enabled and not once did it require me to place a plot pole. The only requirement was a workbench.

 

Another admin did some base building, I logged in after he'd done it and it allowed me to upgrade his buildables, I just checked the database - not one plot pole in sight, checked the logs to and no plot pole in any logs.

[Tactical Ex]

Problem 1) you missed my point. Who cares if you can glitch inside a base if you can destroy the wall to get inside in the first place? The same person who will glitch into a wall will drive right through it as a means to an end. The system wasn't designed to be impermeable so the problem of glitching through walls never had to be addressed. If you are going to fiddle with the way the mod works then you will need to fix the bugs that arise from it. If you make walls indestructible then you are requiring 1 of 2 things, 1.Re-write the code so that the players cant glitch through walls or 2. make the player build double walls. This situation is the same as if you re-wrote Windows 7 and broke something, then called MS for support, they would tell you to bug off because it's not the Windows 7 they designed, it's your frankenstienian version of it.

 

I don't think you understand how plot poles now work in 1.0.2. The problem with your observations is that you WERE NOT using a plot pole. Retry problem 3 and 4 under the correct testing environment.

 

Please read:

 

"[CHANGED] Removed plot pole requirement to build. Plot pole is still used to prevent others from building and to increase item deconstruction times." (http://dayzepoch.com/wiki/index.php/Changelogs)

 

"The 30 Meter Plot Pole gives you the ability restrict others from building in a 60 meter radius from the center. " (http://dayzepoch.com/wiki/index.php/30_Meter_Plot_Pole)

[Eegore]

  Epoch building is for cooperative playstyles.  PvP servers pretty much have no bases.

 

  I like the suggestions but bottom line is the system is built around cooperative rebuild society type players. 

[Tactical Ex]

I see you're a fan of mine, following my discussions and have some kind of issue with me, its a little odd but ok, obviously something going on in your personal life but I'll clarify for you princess, none of my bugs are related to indestructible walls, these bugs are there without ANY modifications to the Epoch code.

Cool down man, I just look at new content and read what I find interesting. Just because I remember some points from your other posts, doesn't mean I follow you, it means we have a common interest (how is that for scary).  I have never directly insulted you unlike you have me ... princess ... nor do I have some kind of issue with you (at least not before now).  The fact you have to call me out just shows how insecure you really are and the fact that your reply contains 0 response to the real issue in your original post (plot poles from problem 3 and 4) proves your intent with this last insult laden reply is to cover your obvious logic flub when writing up your description for problem 3 and 4. Do you understand how the mod works yet? :D

[ToejaM]

Darling, you were trying to insult me as if I'd modded it and I'd broke it. I was stating that the modular base building system has some serious faults that need addressing, and as per usual a jobsworth weighs in on a thread spouting off about my want for indestructible pieces. You got your facts wrong, tried to attribute it to the way I wanted the building mod and it didn't work.

 

I'm far from insecure, I'm not the one invading other peoples threads berating their ideas on subjects, which seems to happen to every thread I make even remotely mentioning base building, as well as other peoples threads who people that reply seem to think that everyone wants their empty ideas forced on them.

 

I have my ideas and like a stray cat at a kebab shop, you people just can't leave alone without turning everything about yourselves.

 

I was stating facts about the mod in the form of feedback and you tell me glitching is ok because walls can be knocked down anyway.

 

On quick inspection of your profile, I just saw who your friend was. That makes sense now LOL

 

Note to self, inspect profiles first before getting involved with people who run empty servers ;)

[Tactical Ex]

So how's your plot pole tests working out?

[ToejaM]

Placing a plot pole still didn't let me remove the buildables I had placed.

 

I've yet to see if it allows other players to upgrade your walls or remove your walls.

[Tactical Ex]

I don't think they coded in a "deconstruct" option for the mod-u-base system. I'm pretty sure that its working as designed but I would prefer that the builder have an option to deconstruct the object, even if they didn't get the materials back (or only got some of the parts back).

 

Though this section in the change logs ... "... Plot pole is still used to prevent others from building and to increase item deconstruction times." ... alludes to the ability to deconstruct.

 

I have a feeling that even with a plot pole down, other players might be able to UPGRADE an existing structure, that's the kind of bug testers will naturally miss. That needs to be fixed if it does happen. 

 

Being able to place an object in front of a door within a plot pole ... plot .... is a flat-out bug because it breaks the very principle of the plot poles. I think its the players price to pay if they risk building a doorway without claiming the plot first.

[ToejaM]

I think using the plot pole to allow building in an area is a great idea, not sure why it was removed.. it stops mindless objects being placed around the map. It could be used as a cleanup system, say if no plotpoll near buildables that are xx age, then they get cleaned up.

 

My idea in another thread was that to use a central/specific item as a point to keep all buildables around you updated and "maintained" and have this object tell you whats around you and how much of XX material is needed for upkeep.. for ease of use, a new item could be added and it would require an amount of this item per amount of buildables around the plotpole.. only because it seems like a lot of work to maintain a base and you'd spend more time doing this than actually playing some of the more core aspects of DayZ. Depends on what kind of system and direction Epoch is taking, survival or sims. Always about balance.

[Firefly]

Anti Wall is definitely needed. Why would you need it? People can log off in your base, log on when they see you are online and have opened your safe, kill you and steal all your shit then walk out the door. Due to an exploit. It is a known problem on PvP servers and one that was addressed with the anti-wall patch in 1.2 base building. Dismounting a vehicle well push you into the centre of a vehicle. 

 

Not a perfect system as sometimes it breaks your legs or kills you. 

 

I am more than happy with no removal of modular building as it has been a bugbear for me in the past. But having just placed a locked garage wall i can't remove it to adjust its position. Owners or tagged friendlies should be able to remove a component. Even if the option to remove it only lasts "X" amount of time to allow for problem placements. 

 

Tactical your posts come across like you are being a dick, they drip with attitude so it is not surprising it rubs people the wrong way. Any issues with the building require dev feedback. I am pretty sure the dev team is grown up enough not need a shield wall of drooling fanatics to defend them every time someone comes up with a criticism, issue, or potential issue. 

[Armifer]

Tactical, My server is PvP based, and base building is the #1 reason people play there. The base building is geared toward PvP for large groups which creates clan wars.

 

Toejam, the plot pole being used as a clean up system is a brilliant idea. But until the mod is patched to fix the issues, here are some suggestions of mine to fix most of these issues.

 

Add the epoch modular house and construction objects to use the protection for anti-disconnect and anti-wall exploiting. Next, make it so that plot poles are required again to build anything, which prevents troll building, and prevents the random build up of abandoned objects cluttering your database, slowing down your load, and lowering your server load FPS. Also put a limit on all objects any player can build withing X distance of each other basically making a cap, so that nothing can get too large and forces them to think strategically when building, but not limiting them too much. All of these help prevent performance issues, and troll building. For example, you dont get any giant great wall of cherno surrounding entire towns, believe it or not, a thing I have seen trolls do on some servers.

 

Doing the above has helped quiet a bit, however there is no fix that I can think of for the upgrading in place of objects that do not belong to someone. Most skilled base builders just start with cinder block walls or use the base building objects to surround their house preventing players from knocking down their 1st floor of walls.

 

Contact me if you need any help with editing the code for these kind of changes. If there is enough interest I'll write up some edits and post them.

[ToejaM]

Are you using the BB1.2 mod?

 

Some good ideas there bud but the issue I have with modular buildings is that they reset to the ground on server restart, which I'm assuming is a basebuilding issue as the base building mod doesn't allow for sky bases forcing items to attach to the ground.

 

If the BB mod allowed for movement using the Epoch system I'd just add the new buildables to the bb mod and all would be solved :)

 

However if you know how to get the anti wall working with the epoch mod without the need to fully install the BB mod that would be awesome :)

[PetuniaEpoch]

Who cares if you can glitch inside a base if you can destroy the wall to get inside in the first place?

Who cares? - I DO for one! If the walls are destructible by driving through them - that's gameplay - unless they are set as indestructible. HOWEVER, glitching through a wall using a in/out of the car method is just plain cheating.

No big deal with? Apart from it encourages more cheating.

Or, are you saying that if someone glitches the game to their advantage that's okay, as long as they COULD have achieved the same outcome without glitching? Really?

Personally I catch a player glitching through walls, they get a ban (a day ban if I'm feeling nice, maybe just a kick & teleport to Kamenka if they are known to be otherwise sound) . It's cheating, end of.

The fact someone pointed out Epoch's modular system has issues isn't a bad thing - it's not an attack on planet Epoch! Lots can be learned from criticism and review - This is how things improve.

I know you accepted that one of the issues posted did need addressing, but you seem rather defensive, almost as though you have taken the list of issues as a personal attack?

[PetuniaEpoch]

Some great ideas in here!

I for one would be VERY interested if you do decide to write up some edits to the code! I use BB 1.2 (heads-up to ToejaM for the advice/help with that!), and the ideas you discuss below sound very interesting!

Tactical, My server is PvP based, and base building is the #1 reason people play there. The base building is geared toward PvP for large groups which creates clan wars.

 

Toejam, the plot pole being used as a clean up system is a brilliant idea. But until the mod is patched to fix the issues, here are some suggestions of mine to fix most of these issues.

 

Add the epoch modular house and construction objects to use the protection for anti-disconnect and anti-wall exploiting. Next, make it so that plot poles are required again to build anything, which prevents troll building, and prevents the random build up of abandoned objects cluttering your database, slowing down your load, and lowering your server load FPS. Also put a limit on all objects any player can build withing X distance of each other basically making a cap, so that nothing can get too large and forces them to think strategically when building, but not limiting them too much. All of these help prevent performance issues, and troll building. For example, you dont get any giant great wall of cherno surrounding entire towns, believe it or not, a thing I have seen trolls do on some servers.

 

Doing the above has helped quiet a bit, however there is no fix that I can think of for the upgrading in place of objects that do not belong to someone. Most skilled base builders just start with cinder block walls or use the base building objects to surround their house preventing players from knocking down their 1st floor of walls.

 

Contact me if you need any help with editing the code for these kind of changes. If there is enough interest I'll write up some edits and post them.

[Tactical Ex]

Anti Wall is definitely needed. Why would you need it? People can log off in your base, log on when they see you are online and have opened your safe, kill you and steal all your shit then walk out the door. Due to an exploit. It is a known problem on PvP servers and one that was addressed with the anti-wall patch in 1.2 base building. Dismounting a vehicle well push you into the centre of a vehicle. 

 

...

 

Tactical your posts come across like you are being a dick, they drip with attitude so it is not surprising it rubs people the wrong way. Any issues with the building require dev feedback. I am pretty sure the dev team is grown up enough not need a shield wall of drooling fanatics to defend them every time someone comes up with a criticism, issue, or potential issue. 

I don't think that "Anti-Wall" ISNT needed.  As you explained, there are situations that favor the exploiter if it can be exploited (I'm not sure how often that particular scenario occurs, if that were the case I would likely be locking the doors before I open my safe, but valid point IF that scenario is commonplace). What my thoughts on this is that bandits have terrible morals, I wouldn't trust the bandit (who wants to kill me and steal my gear) to "play by the rules" and ONLY use conventional non-glitchy methods to enter my base. Lets say I want to get into this players safe which is inside the base, I could glitch in (and risk hurting myself) or I could blast my way through. Both risk the same level of exposure be the latter comes with lesser personal risk. It's a sucky place to be in, either way, if you are the base owner but that's just how it works right now. That why I think its a non-issue, that is unless you start making the mod-u-base system so that the parts cannot be destroyed, at that point the ONLY way in is by glitching, and that would most certainly need to be addressed.

 

I'm sorry you see read my posts and observe me as being a dick, that's unfortunate because I don't consider myself one ... most of the time. The pitfall of forums is you are anonymous and cant read body language.  I assure you my responses are 90% Vulcan emotionlessness. I want to make it clear that I'm not a drooling fanatic and I'm not defending anyone, my objective with my original reply was to weed out the REAL issues (problem 2 and POSSIBLY problem 1) in an effort to REDUCE the dev's workload in fixing bugs by uncovering which of the 4 problems previously stated were ,indeed, actually bugs.  If you read through everything up until now you will have seen that problem 3 and 4 turned out to be most likely from an incorrect usage of the plot poles and were not an exploit to the system as originally thought; so I think I have accomplished something positive with this thread by reducing the total number of issues from 4 to 2 (possibly 1).  

[Tactical Ex]

1) ...are you saying that if someone glitches the game to their advantage that's okay, as long as they COULD have achieved the same outcome without glitching? Really? ...

2) The fact someone pointed out Epoch's modular system has issues isn't a bad thing - it's not an attack on planet Epoch! Lots can be learned from criticism and review - This is how things improve.

3) I know you accepted that one of the issues posted did need addressing, but you seem rather defensive, almost as though you have taken the list of issues as a personal attack?

1) No, not at all. Glitching is a form of cheating, bottom line. I think that enforcing the law when it comes to this kind of behavior it is near impossible. I just don't think that fixing the issue is going to change the fact that players will get inside other player's bases. I'm not saying it's right (I find it quite annoying in fact) but if you fix the issue where players can glitch inside walls then they are just going to blow up the walls if they can.  My point is that it's probably very low on the list of things to address because in the long run it's not going to change much of the player's experience.

 

2) No, pointing out exploits IS NOT a bad thing.  Pointing out things that are not exploits but feedback based on improperly performed tests (problem 3 and 4) IS a bad thing because it detracts the devs from REAL issues. That's why I pointed out what I pointed out.

 

3) I'm glad you noticed that I did accept an issue as needing to be addressed. I'm not here to rip other people apart, problem 2 was a REAL problem and I commend ToeJam for pointing it out, as for the rest of the content, I disagreed. I own nothing related to epoch and I cant claim any feasible contributions to it so I cant reasonably be defensive.  If it came off that way, it wasn't intended.

[mikeloeven]

the big issue about number 4 lack of deconstruct options for walls floors semiperminant structures ETC is that if they somehow get misplaced or if you want to just get rid of some shack and build something nicer. in all there is no reason you should have to waste multiple magazines shooting at a wall or damage a truck by ramming it just to remove it.

 

 

also speaking of deconstruction we have had reports on our server of people being killed by exploding wooden stairs when they tried to remove it with an axe.. last time i checked wooden objects DONT EXPLODE

[Tactical Ex]

the big issue about number 4 lack of deconstruct options for walls floors semiperminant structures ETC is that if they somehow get misplaced or if you want to just get rid of some shack and build something nicer. in all there is no reason you should have to waste multiple magazines shooting at a wall or damage a truck by ramming it just to remove it.

I'm pretty sure its not something that's coded in so it would NOT be an exploit or a bug but I agree that its very much needed.

[ToejaM]

Any update on stopping glitching through walls?

[Armifer]

Wooden stairs didn't explode, they collapsed, like how a small shed would. You can test this out in elektro with a mounted MG, shoot any small little shed until it gets enough damage it will collapse and create a rubble pile. Collapsing buildings in arma2 can kill players near by, and if its a large enough building, cause the leg breaking glitch when a player walks on it while anyone logs in and out of the server.

 

In origins, they put a collision mesh decorated with fencing and tank traps to prevent players from jumping out of vehicles through walls into their houses. In Epoch you must manually build this protection around your house, use barbed wire protected by tank traps, or metal panels, or sand bags, to prevent cars from rolling up to your house. Also you only need a very small foundation to your house, as the rest can be built in the air on the 2nd floor. You can also wall off your house with cinder block walls, and use a cinder block garage door as a main gate, so if they do hope through your wall, they will be stuck in the area between your house and the wall. Think defensively when building, so if they do this you can easily shoot them from your roof or a window. You can go further and build a 2 stage gate system to keep out exploiters.

 

Anyhow, if you want the objects to be removable you could just add them to the variables.sqf, that should work, but I'm sure many players wouldn't like that. Maybe a remove option only for the owner so that he can re-construct as needed without spending so much time hatcheting his objects.

 

Just some suggestions in the mean time.

[Sequisha]

 In Epoch you must manually build this protection around your house, use barbed wire protected by tank traps, or metal panels, or sand bags, to prevent cars from rolling up to your house. Also you only need a very small foundation to your house, as the rest can be built in the air on the 2nd floor. You can also wall off your house with cinder block walls, and use a cinder block garage door as a main gate, so if they do hope through your wall, they will be stuck in the area between your house and the wall. Think defensively when building, so if they do this you can easily shoot them from your roof or a window. You can go further and build a 2 stage gate system to keep out exploiters.

 

Thank you.  This is the route we're wanting to go.

As for the "Anti-Wall Script", it should be renamed "Lol im still inside my car *gets one-shot* script".

Bandaging problems in this way should never be a go-to, particularly one that effects ANYTHING not related to the problem directly.

There's a little ditty in the works to make use of some already abundant materials found in game, let's just say...um, more of a "Venus Flytrap" item to aid in deterring vehicle-wall glitching pests.

Wouldn't it be nice to log in, hearing the sweet sound of flies...  "OoooOOoooo... a special delivery!!!"

Also, unrelated.

[ToejaM]

The anti wall script works on detecting walls around it and if a wall is around it, it godmodes the player briefly for I think its two seconds and spawns them in the center of their car. So its not an instakill.. gives enough time to run out of the car but not enough time to stand and shoot. It works very well, not had one instance of people complaining someone used it and couldnt be killed.

 

The only solution is to create double thick walls with a gap inbetween or plant tank traps away from the building but as these are removable it doesn't always solve the issue. It also means that more buildables are spawned in creating higher server load.

 

The anti disconnect works on a similar idea, if you disconnect near a wall it'll force you to a close position previously gathered.

[ToejaM]

Just seen this file:

 

server_antiWall.sqf

 

Thanks for listening.