The currency system needs a complete do over

[mikeloeven]

Every Epoc server i have been on has one major complaint and that is the trading system as a whole

 

 

in fact the entire currency system as a whole seems to be poorly thought out due to the obvious limitations of the dayz inventory system. it adds an obscine ammount of grinding for what should be a simple trading transaction not counting the fact that a player animation is not needed or desired durring a trade.

 

on top of that there is the extra 2 10 oz gold lost when converting to a breifcase. considering all other transactions are 1-1 ratio this seems like the stupidest idea ever. if the breifcase is going to cost any additional currency than it should be a more reasonable price like a silver or something since it adds or removes absolutly no value from the gold inside.

 

to be honest it is my firm belief that the entire currency system should be scrapped and replaced with a non material curency that consists of a simple counter in euros, USD, rubles or some simillar currency that makes the trading system a bit smoother and allows for dynamic changes in value without needing to smelt metal ingots... i mean it really truly is rediculous and a good game designer would take into account the inventory issue before designing some half assed trading system based on rare metals that frankly would not just be found lying around in a zombie apocalypse.

 

i am sorry if this post sounds harsh but the system as a whole simply doesent work efficiantly and wastes alot time players could be using to actually play the game.

[Tactical Ex]

I like the metals and the idea that they take up inventory space but I find it frustrating that if I want 3 items and I have all the metals in my inv for purchasing those 3 items that I have to wait through all the animations. I think it would be tough to code but being able to choose QTY alleviate the issues.  Also, I'd love to see most of the items at a regular trader available at a wholesaler. When I need 40 scrap metal, it really sucks buying 3 at a time.

[Gimmic]

The biggest change that needs to happen is actual change.

 

If I'm carrying a 10oz Silver, I should be able to buy a 2 silver item and the vendor returns 8 1oz silvers to me automatically. Obviously, it should pay from the lowest possible item upwards just like how you count change. If I have 3 10oz Copper on me and I want to buy something that is 1 silver, the vendor should take the 3 10oz copper before taking a full silver. If the item is 2 silver, and I'm carrying 2 silver and 3 10z copper, the vendor should take the 3 10oz copper and 1 silver(to total 2 silver).

 

Basically, I'm fine with the metals idea although I'm not sure why we would be dealing with metals much in an epoch world. Bartering should be more prevalent. 

 

To simplify the currency economy I highly suggest looking at how Fallout(new vegas) handles it. Since every item has a sale value, why not display some kind of trade window to 'barter'? I know that's going to be a lot of additional code if at all possible.. but right now it is a chore to sell items, smelt metals, trade metals, buy items when we should be able to trade directly for the gear with value-for-value.

It would also be very beneficial for vendors to see inside your backpack. This would help with additional juggling. 

[Sequisha]

The briefcase can be farmed from 2 primary sources, that's where the additional cost comes from. 
We're considering ways to make the system a little less clunky, as in change from the vendors with purchasing etc...but these metals will playing a more valuable role moving forward as well.

One step was the implementation of the trader menus provided by development help from Maca. 

[neiljb]

How about going with the separate currency system like maca's own server uses?

[Sequisha]

How about going with the separate currency system like maca's own server uses?

That's a negative.  We don't ever plan on moving to an ethereal currency system like wasteland.

Without going too deep into concepts for future builds, the current rare metals and how they're handled by the player will play an important role moving forward.

[TigerKnight]

If I'm carrying a 10oz Silver, I should be able to buy a 2 silver item and the vendor returns 8 1oz silvers to me automatically. Obviously, it should pay from the lowest possible item upwards just like how you count change. If I have 3 10oz Copper on me and I want to buy something that is 1 silver, the vendor should take the 3 10oz copper before taking a full silver. If the item is 2 silver, and I'm carrying 2 silver and 3 10z copper, the vendor should take the 3 10oz copper and 1 silver(to total 2 silver).

 

It would also be very beneficial for vendors to see inside your backpack. This would help with additional juggling. 

 

These are two of my biggest gripes with the system. The only other one I have is we need a 5oz bar of the various metals that two combine to a 10oz. Having to have to have 10 out of 12 slots available to craft a 10oz bar is a pain in the ass and really time consuming as you have to be able to clear out space to make this happen.

[mikeloeven]

but as a stop gap allowing the trader script to parse and edit back back inventory would certainly provide a dramitic temporary improvement. it would allow the quick selling of multiple guns as well as stopping the loss of gold when your main inventory is full since the trader could than just overflow the extra gold into your pack.

 

additionally i did have an interesting idea on how to combine the metals with a type of etherial currency system..

 

what you could do is make a banker NPC. the banker NPC would have an infinitly large inventory that only accepts metal ingots and breifcases.

 

players can deposit their total wealth or withdraw the individual ingots for player to player transactions

 

all traders on the map will be able to see what is inside each players bank account as well as their personal inventory. And the banker script would convert currencies as needed by the traders. 

 

this requires that the metals exist in game and requires that any purchases made are backed by them while at the same time solving the storage situation.

[maca134]

That's a negative.  We don't ever plan on moving to an ethereal currency system like wasteland.

Without going too deep into concepts for future builds, the current rare metals and how they're handled by the player will play an important role moving forward.

I created a system to get around flaw in arma/dayz/epoch, that some people consider to be an improvement on the bar system. Inventory is too buggy, overflow is used and in my opinion should not be relied on to get around other issues. It is something i may consider releasing but dont want to step on peoples toes etc.

 

Here is a run down, as i think my system is a good balance between what epoch want to do and making the currency abit more manageable.

 

• Traders use a single gold coin currency.
• 900/9000 gold coins can be smelted into 1oz/10oz gold bar.
• Bars are still stored in safes.
• If you die with gold coins on your body, any other player can take the money.
• You can give player gold coins.
• Can trader bars <--> coins at all traders.
• Bank trader - Allows you to store upto a briefcase on gold safely. (this is something im not 100% on board with each, more testing required)

 

 

Honestly, flatly refusing to consider a possible option is abit of a disappointment. 

Edited September 10, 2013 by maca134
Miss-understood

[neiljb]

I don't think he meant negative as in its bad. I think he meant negative as in no, they don't plan to.

[maca134]

I don't think he meant negative as in its bad. I think he meant negative as in no, they don't plan to.

lol me and my dyslexsic brain

[happysan]

Easy fixes that seem compatible with future plans for metal:

 

1.  Just adding change to the vendors would do wonders.

2.  Remove the animations between trades.  

[mikeloeven]

i totally agree with removal of animation and a shorter delay. currently the trading animation makes it look like they are forcing you to give blowjobs at gunpoint XD
 

[vbawol]

Changing the animation is something we are going to do, as well as giving change. I think next patch 1.0.2.3-ish I will add a magazine item for a "coin pouch" that would hold 0-900 coins to replace all other lower bars as currency. All bars lower than 1oz of gold will just be trade-able into coins. This would be used for trades on items lower than 1oz of gold. When making change this item will be consumed and a item will be replaced with the proper change. Over 1oz Gold Bars will still be used and made to stack in 1oz increments (1-10oz). Briefcases will function the same as they always have but will store increments of 1oz (0-100oz). On selling the trade would look for partially filled "coin pouches","Bar Stacks","Briefcases" and append the output.

 

On buying the trade will look first for the exact Item/change consume that item and return nothing. Otherwise it will give the highest denominations back as change, for example:

 

Player has a coin pouch with 900 coins, makes a purchase costing 50 coins  Returns: (900 - 50 = 850).

Player has a coin pouch with 500 coins, makes a purchase costing 50 coins  Returns: (500 - 50 = 450).

Player has 10 x 1oz Gold Bars, makes a purchase costing 50 coins  Returns: (10 - 1 = 9oz + 900 - 50 = 850).

Player has 10 x 1oz Gold Bars, makes a purchase costing 1oz bar Returns: (10 - 1 = 9oz).

Player has a Briefcase with 100 x 1oz bars, makes a purchase costing 1oz bar Returns: (100 - 1 = 99oz).

Player has a Briefcase with 100 x 1oz bars, makes a purchase costing 50 coins  Returns: (100 - 1 = 99oz + 900 - 50 = 850).

 

(1-900) Coins

(900-9000) Bars

(9000-90000) Briefcase 

[neiljb]

 

Changing the animation is something we are going to do, as well as giving change. I think next patch 1.0.2.3-ish I will add a magazine item for a "coin pouch" that would hold 0-900 coins to replace all other lower bars as currency. All bars lower than 1oz of gold will just be trade-able into coins. This would be used for trades on items lower than 1oz of gold. When making change this item will be consumed and a item will be replaced with the proper change. Over 1oz Gold Bars will still be used and made to stack in 1oz increments (1-10oz). Briefcases will function the same as they always have but will store increments of 1oz (0-100oz). On selling the trade would look for partially filled "coin pouches","Bar Stacks","Briefcases" and append the output.

 

On buying the trade will look first for the exact Item/change consume that item and return nothing. Otherwise it will give the highest denominations back as change, for example:

 

Player has a coin pouch with 900 coins, makes a purchase costing 50 coins  Returns: (900 - 50 = 850).

Player has a coin pouch with 500 coins, makes a purchase costing 50 coins  Returns: (500 - 150 = 450).

Player has 10 x 1oz Gold Bars, makes a purchase costing 50 coins  Returns: (10 - 1 = 9oz + 900 - 50 = 850).

Player has 10 x 1oz Gold Bars, makes a purchase costing 1oz bar Returns: (10 - 1 = 9oz).

Player has a Briefcase with 100 x 1oz bars, makes a purchase costing 1oz bar Returns: (100 - 1 = 99oz).

Player has a Briefcase with 100 x 1oz bars, makes a purchase costing 50 coins  Returns: (100 - 1 = 99oz + 900 - 50 = 850).

 

(1-900) Coins

(900-9000) Bars

(9000-90000) Briefcase 

 

 

Nice, sounds like it should be pretty sweet. :D

[Gimmic]

 

Player has 10 x 1oz Gold Bars, makes a purchase costing 50 coins  Returns: (10 - 1 = 9oz + 900 - 50 = 850).

 

(1-900) Coins

 

So this thoroughly confuses me. You're using base 10 for the gold, but not for coins? Why wouldn't 100 or 1000 coins = 1oz gold?

I would expect that transaction to look like:

50 coin purchase = 9oz 950 coins returned.

 

1-1000 coins, 

1000 coins = 1oz bar

10 bars = 1 briefcase

 

This makes it incredibly easy to say "Yes, that car part is going to be 1.5 bars, which is 1500 coins or 1oz 500 coins"

0-900 means when you say 1.5 bars, it would actually be 1450 coins or 1 bar, 450 coins?

 

'coins' seems like a form of ethereal money that you just will drop with a purse/bag. It doesn't make a lot of sense to me to make it overly confusing. 

[mstsupra]

I created a system to get around flaw in arma/dayz/epoch, that some people consider to be an improvement on the bar system. Inventory is too buggy, overflow is used and in my opinion should not be relied on to get around other issues. It is something i may consider releasing but dont want to step on peoples toes etc.

 

Here is a run down, as i think my system is a good balance between what epoch want to do and making the currency abit more manageable.

 

• Traders use a single gold coin currency.
• 900/9000 gold coins can be smelted into 1oz/10oz gold bar.
• Bars are still stored in safes.
• If you die with gold coins on your body, any other player can take the money.
• You can give player gold coins.
• Can trader bars <--> coins at all traders.
• Bank trader - Allows you to store upto a briefcase on gold safely. (this is something im not 100% on board with each, more testing required)

 

 

Honestly, flatly refusing to consider a possible option is abit of a disappointment. 

I watch the video and it's amazing, great job

you are the only one to possess or what is the output?

[Tactical Ex]

I tend to agree with others in saying just keep it 10 base (1000 coins = 1oz gold bar).  I do like the idea of getting rid of copper and silver though, you could repurpose those objects to be "Steel ingot" and "Bronze Ingot" and use them for future crafting materials. Also. what about Aluminum or Tin, the keymakers kit still needs Tin? How would players obtain these metals? Maybe add the ability to convert unwanted types of ammo and trash into pieces of Tin, Aluminum, Bronze, and Steel?

[vbawol]

I am fine with Base 10 and it will make it easier to code, We will re-purpose the copper and silver, You already can make tin and Aluminum from tin cans and empty soda cans. All the bar types will be able to be traded in for gold coins.

[MrSeagull]

I agree that it needs to be improved, but I would prefer it stay as some form of inventory item. I like the flavor of the metal bars/coins option. 
Maybe the coin bags can work like ammo magazines; make it so you can remove a .1 oz, .5 oz, or 1 oz coin via right-click menu, with an option to add all coins up to capacity. the "magazine" would hold 100 rounds, with each round being a .1 oz coin. Also, I'd like the bars to stay, but maybe make them all be 10 oz., essentially worth 100 coins of the equivalent metal. Basic purchases would involve coin bags, high-end purchases would require briefcases of bars.

Can trader interactions be made to modify the contents of a magazine without removing and replacing the item?

I'd also like to see the other less-precious metals stay too, but item prices scaled down so gold is more precious and tin is more used for mundane items. Though in reality, aluminum would eventually become a precious metal; the only source would be recycling. Manufacturing aluminum is a highly technical process outside the scope of a post-apocalyptic world.

[DNightmare]

*yay* My favorite "problem" gets some more attention :D

Glad to hear you're still on it.

[Sequisha]

Honestly, flatly refusing to consider a possible option is abit of a disappointment. 

Seems you misinterpreted what I posted, the whole point of keeping away from an ethereal form of currency is so that it can be taken from a player's body; thus retaining it's value.

Apologies for getting back to this thread so late, and your input has definitely had a positive impact on the grand scope of things.  Where you been btw?!

[maca134]

With my system this is already implemented. When you die, the money you were carrying can be taken by anyone.

 

Im also intending to tie it into the weight system, so its more realistic. The managing money aspect is still there, cos you can still only store bars in safes, it just moves makes deal with traders less of a choir.

 

Honestly been mentally busy, been working alot on Aftermath recently.

[Firefly]

To be honest I am not sure I understand either of the proposed systems here. 

 

Modern paper money is useless, it originally came from the sort of "I owe you" that when the recipient took to a banking type establishment they could cash thus doing away with the need to carry a huge amount of coin. No banks, no tangible worth mean it wouldn't mean anything. 

 

Precious metals are...not precious. In ancient times gold was used as an elaborate decoration. From a metal point of view is is an utterly useless metal. Copper perhaps which is why it is worth quite a lot these days. Silver again not really. 

 

I would prefer a bartering system, it would be more in keeping with the mod and move away from the sort of fantasy MMO gold bar/gold coin system. The bartering system would attribute a "worth" value that could be then traded for other things. With sought after items such as antibiotics, other meds, nutrition packs (Vitamins etc), ammunitions, salt etc. Fruit, plants etc.

 

Essentially trading based on need, rather than gold. Pain in the ass to implement though. 

 

One thing I do agree with is the briefcase thing where an empty briefcase costs more than anything else. It makes no sense. Easily sorted by server admins though. 

[MrSeagull]

Modern paper money is useless, it originally came from the sort of "I owe you" that when the recipient took to a banking type establishment they could cash thus doing away with the need to carry a huge amount of coin. No banks, no tangible worth mean it wouldn't mean anything. 

Precious metals are...not precious. In ancient times gold was used as an elaborate decoration. From a metal point of view is is an utterly useless metal. Copper perhaps which is why it is worth quite a lot these days. Silver again not really. 

 

I would prefer a bartering system, it would be more in keeping with the mod and move away from the sort of fantasy MMO gold bar/gold coin system. The bartering system would attribute a "worth" value that could be then traded for other things. With sought after items such as antibiotics, other meds, nutrition packs (Vitamins etc), ammunitions, salt etc. Fruit, plants etc.

You're right on the paper money note - Without banks, bank notes are worthless (Though, eventually banks would appear as their need arose) and FIAT currency is worthless without a government enforcing a currency monopoly.

The primary reason behind the value in "precious" metals used as currency is their relative scarcity. Gold and silver also has the distinction of being resistant to many forms of corrosion. Like I noted above, aluminum would just as likely be a precious metal in a post-apocalyptic world due to the difficulty in manufacturing it from raw materials (bauxite).

The problem with a bartering system is something called "Division of Labor", at least in the real world. Scale it down to a DayZ like world: If someone spends their time scavenging and repairing automobile, the product of their labor would have limited value to someone who farms chickens, or an arms dealer. On the other side, the chicken farmer could not save up enough chickens to trade for a functioning automobile, assuming he could even find one who would accept such a payment.

A coin made of out material that is difficult to produce (Gold, silver, etc.) would be valuable to the chicken farmer because he could save up enough of it from his exchanges to purchase products and services from other who don't want the products he produces, but can use the coin to buy what they want. A barter system really only work in agrarian-like societies, like the Amish, for example.

I suppose I'm getting too much into economics, but the state at which humanity exists in Epoch would have needs beyond the use of barter for exchange.